Alive! with Pastor Patina Ripkey
Life Changing Testimonies with Pastor Patina Ripkey and special guests.
Alive! with Pastor Patina Ripkey
Can a Christian Become an Atheist?
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Millions of Christians wrestle with doubts, questions, and challenges to their beliefs. For some, this process -- often called deconstruction -- leads to a deeper and more nuanced faith. For others, it results in leaving Christianity altogether. But why does this happen? What experiences, questions, or struggles drive people to reexamine the faith they once held? And do all who deconstruct eventually become atheists?
Patina has an honest and open conversation about deconstruction and repentance with two guests, Pastor Brian James and Craig Perkinson.
Welcome And Topic Setup
SPEAKER_05All right, everybody, welcome to Alive. It's been a while, and I just want to say thank you for tuning in. So today's gonna be a little bit different than what I normally do. So typically I'll have somebody on and a guest, and we'll talk back and forth, and a lot of it is testimony based about their walk with the Lord. But today is going to be different because I've picked a subject to talk about and I've invited a couple guests to be on with me. And the subject we're gonna be talking about is Christians deconstructing their faith and becoming atheists. So it's a very interesting subject to talk about. I feel like it's pretty relevant, quite relevant actually. And I want to describe in pretty generic terms what it means to deconstruct if you've not heard of it before. So deconstruction from the Christian faith generally refers to a process where a person goes and critically examines and questions and often reevaluates their beliefs, their traditions, and their assumptions from what they were taught within Christianity. So this can involve wrestling with theological doctrines, moral teachings, church experiences, or perceived inconsistencies between faith and personal experience or evidence. So for some, deconstruction leads to a reshaped or more nuanced faith, but for others, it results in distancing from or leaving Christianity altogether. The process is often deeply personal and can include elements of doubt, reflection, and a search for authenticity or truth. Sometimes those who say that they were Christian can completely turn away from the faith and claim to be agnostic or atheist. And so I'm inviting into the conversation today Pastor Brian James and Craig Perkinson. And so welcome, guys.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_05I figured they will uh you know bring the smarts to the whole thing.
What Deconstruction Really Means
SPEAKER_01Um I think we told somebody I was going to be the dumbest of three people in the room.
SPEAKER_02Well, if y'all are counting on me, we might be in trouble.
SPEAKER_05Basically, what we're saying is, you know, we're people of faith, and we're just going to be having a conversation about this subject. And uh I think it's pretty safe to say that all three of us are comfortable with people questioning their faith.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05Uh and having doubts.
SPEAKER_01It's a necessity. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yes. I used to tell my kids, uh, my son especially, who questioned a lot. And I said, you know, questions uh will lead to answers. So I've always been a supporter of questions. My my dad used to tell me when I was a little girl if you hear uh a preacher preach a sermon, you hear somebody say something, go check them. He didn't say the word fact check. I don't think it was a thing back then. But he's like, don't just believe somebody because of who they are. Go check and uh make sure that you believe that what they're saying is truthful. So um to give a little bit more background, I've seen, and you guys probably have two or had conversations with people, but uh lately online there have been several podcasts and interviews of people's stories or maybe their own personal testimonies about deconstruction. Um I watched one the other day that really left me feeling disturbed in my soul. And I sent it to both of you, and then there have been like side conversations that kind of ended up like, let's talk about it uh and record it in case anybody wants to hear it. Um, I I want to put out there that a lot of people have uh deconstructed, but maybe the other direction. So I was thinking um about Lee Strobel, who was an atheist, and he did all of his research and he became a fervent follower of Jesus.
SPEAKER_02Um he actually set out to disprove Christianity. He had a goal. He was gonna take down Christianity and ended up bringing him to Christ.
SPEAKER_05Yes. And it's amazing to see that. Um I thought we were talking earlier about the guy from Good Mythical Morning, Rhett, I think. He definitely deconstructed, said he was a Christian in ministry, and um, and then deconstructed. And I think it says online now he says he's a hopeful agnostic.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_05Um, it's this pursuit of whatever type of evidence people are looking for, I guess. I I also uh read a book a while back. This isn't somebody, this is a person, Alisa Childers, you may have heard of her, but she was a from the uh a group called Zoe Girl, and it was a band many years ago, way before your time. And um she went, started going to a progressive church, and it really uh challenged her faith. So she completely deconstructed everything and did a bunch of research and reconstructed in basically Christian Orthodox um beliefs. So there's a lot of things that go on. Um but we've we've watched a podcast. Uh the gentleman's name is Todd Phillips. And Todd Phillips, if you see anything about it now, he is was a he calls himself a megachurch pastor.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Um and actually after watching the video, I guess he was the pastor at more than one megachurch. Yes. Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_05Churches that a lot of people would be very familiar with. Um and back when megachurches really weren't a thing. I mean, he's talking like back in the early 2000s and mid, you know, like the night I would say like 2003 to uh 2014. Something like that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05That's how long he did it. So I just want to have a conversation. Um and you know what? We didn't pray before we start. Let us pray. Yeah, absolutely. Lord, I want to thank you for this opportunity to talk about something that is um in our world right now. And I pray that you give us clarity and that we
Why The Todd Phillips Story Disturbs
SPEAKER_05we communicate about the things that you think are important, the most important. So we offer this time to you and ask that you help us to be effective in this conversation. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
SPEAKER_02Amen. Amen.
SPEAKER_05So can we talk about overall feelings first of all? We'll show some clips. This is the first time I've done the clip thing. So um, but I just want to start with kind of your general feelings when you watched the video. Pastor Brian, why don't you start?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um I I think for me, well, I I remember the second time I started to watch it, I actually came in your office and said, I can only watch this in 10 to 15 minute segments because it's it's hard to listen to, just the level of uh animosity. It wasn't just I I don't think that faith is for me anymore. It's like I have to convince everyone that I come into contact with that that that's the wrong path. And so I just found the whole level of animosity to be really disturbing. And so that kind of put me down the road of if there's any discussion about this, I want to be a part of it. Because, you know, it's it's fine to come to a reasoned, measured uh experience in your life and say, listen, I've I've continued to search scripture. There are things that I have problems with within the scriptures that I can't, you know. None of if you watch that interview, he didn't say, you know, this whole D I I searched all these scriptures and they no longer apply to me. It was all performance-oriented. Church does it wrong, so I'm not going to be a part of that anymore. In fact, I'm not going to believe in any of it anymore. He didn't cite any scriptures that he found to no longer be true. Anyway.
SPEAKER_05Well, it it felt like because we are so passionate and have had such an unbelievable experience in the church and with Jesus. So it was like very hard because it means so much to Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I don't want to monopolize, but we're in the middle of this week talking about, you know, 15 people who've decided I want to, I want to become a part of the church. And we're talking about 10 people saying, I want to be baptized. I want to so we've I had this really leveling experience of trying to process what this guy is talking about.
SPEAKER_05Well, and and then I'm gonna ask you the question too, but I will put this out there that our passion and exuberance and excitement about Jesus, um, he had in the interview the same feeling about atheism.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And that's what I think really made me sad, to be honest. It made me very sad.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So for me, when I first watched through it, it was it was a bag of emotions. It was a little frustrating. One of the biggest things that stood out to me is exactly what Brian was talking about. I I kept waiting to hear what it was that made him come to this conclusion. Um, and I'm just thinking in my mind, like, you know, he's talking about the different seminaries that he's gone to and his doctoral studies and all of this work that he's done. And I keep thinking, okay, he's gonna get to where he's got where he started losing his faith or started questioning something, but it it was never there. Um and it made me feel um a little sad, honestly. Um it wasn't it wasn't an easy thing for me to watch. Um it's it's unfathomable for me to think how somebody could be that close and yet so far away at the same time. So it was a hard watch.
SPEAKER_05Well, I want to show a clip and we'll try to do this so people can see him talking a little bit. I mean, we won't maybe play like a minute and a half, two minutes, and I'll just stop it whenever about his experience, and then we can talk about our thoughts after we watch it.
SPEAKER_00And that was really the extent of my religious experience until I was 24. Um fast forward to being 24. I was in Denver, Colorado. Um, I was in a very challenging situation in my life. We we the the details are not that important, but but
Listening To His Conversion Story
SPEAKER_00suffice it to say, it was a financially, emotionally, relationally, spiritually challenging time. I was in a I would call it a deep kind of existential hole as I look back on it. And I was looking for something, nothing was working uh in my life. And I happened to get in touch with a an old friend who I hadn't talked with in years. My mother actually told me about him. His name is also uh Todd. So this other guy's name is Todd. But my mom told me that uh Todd had become a Christian, and he uh he was a gospel singer now. Now, this is a guy that I used to party with, I mean, aggressively, and and the last thing I thought this man would ever do would be become a Christian. And so one night late, two or three o'clock in the morning, actually, this is back when you'd call uh 411 information to try to get somebody's phone number, and there was long distance calls. Uh back in what was this, 1994. And uh I called him at two o'clock in the morning, got his uh his phone number, called him collect, and he accepted the charges. And uh we ended up getting on the phone that night and I said, Look, my my mom uh told me that you were a Christian now, and I just wanted to dismiss it so I could move on, because it didn't make any sense. And uh he said, Yeah, I am and I I go, Well, tell me what the deal is. It is is it some sort of scam? Are you taking advantage of somebody? Like what what's really what's what's really going on? And over the next month, um, we spent I mean, hours is is an understatement. We spent many hours every night for the next month. Every night I would call him, collect, he would accept the charges, and then he would tell me all about Jesus, and he would tell me that you know, if I would just come to faith in Jesus and give my life and let my lifestyle over to him, that I would get all my sins forgiven, past, present, and future, I could start my life over with a clean slate. He would start to, through the Spirit of God, guide me into truth and give me a purpose for my life. I mean, the the the gospel story.
SPEAKER_05So um everything that he said and experienced sounds like authentic, came to the end of myself. Um how can he be saying these things? And he obviously takes this guy up and and says he gave again, we won't go into that, but gives his life to Jesus, has this Jesus experience, he said, an encounter, gets baptized and gets involved in the church. Um so do you hear anything that you think uh doesn't line up? That's my first question. And the second question is I want us to talk about biblical repentance. What is it? Um so what did you guys think about what he said?
SPEAKER_02So I I noticed that he was talking about he how he came to the end of himself and he was looking for a place to go. Um and knowing where he's come from at the time that he's in this interview, it's almost like I can hear it in a different way. I almost hear like the way that he was approaching this, seeing somebody that he didn't think could ever become successful or like any of that type of stuff. Um it's almost as if he was hearing it like the way somebody would describe getting into a new profession or something. Um, you know, and so he said he needed direction. Right. He needed direction. And um we all need direction. Um and I, you know, I think that coming to the end of yourself is a good thing for most of us. Um and it just seems like maybe he was holding on to the wrong parts of where he was going. Um, instead of holding on to the fact that God was creating this change in this person's life and these people's life that he started to um become around. He took it as more of a this group of social people and what is happening within the group. I think he was focused more on like the actions and the people in the community than he was God and what the community itself was actually focused on. He was focused on the community instead of what he should have been. That's what it seems like to me.
SPEAKER_01You know what what the first time I listen, I went back and listened to to him talk about this um part of his life, and it was never it never sounded like a like what I would say uh when you look at Paul and he's on the road to Damascus and he has this experience, he's not looking for anything, he's not at the end of himself, quote unquote. Um but he has this encounter that's real and life-changing, and it's not uh so I began to live my life like a Christian. He's like Paul is just absolutely lost. Like, I don't know what to what to put into this void that God has now created. I'm I'm sightless. I'm and and so he begins to get filled up with the word through somebody. I I didn't hear any of that. It was like, no, I I had nothing, and you know, he's telling me about something that sounds like everything. So that's a culture I want to get involved in. And it was almost like, you know, uh if the guy would have been a really good Amway salesman, uh he might have ended up, you know, working for them. So anyway. And I don't want to belittle, I mean, I he I there's nothing in anything that he says that I don't think he's genuinely in the place that he's at now with his agnosticism or his his atheism. But uh if you start in the wrong place, you know. And I think we can talk some more about repentance, but I think that's what I'm not, you know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think that's where kind of I've been laying there at night thinking about this because it really shines a light in my mind on what we teach people and how we present the gospel. He's like, this is the gospel. So what is yeah, the gospel's good news. But like I I've I've was taught, I don't know who, maybe both of you guys talking about repentance and what it means. And I think maybe some churches and maybe even I myself have missed the mark when it talks about what it what repentance is, because we know that it means turning around. We know the word means that, like leaving that behind and going another way. Um but I feel like it's the understanding that I am the created one and that there is a creator, and that the Jesus made a way for us to be in communion with the creator, but we have to understand our position. And it's not for me to gain something. Repentance doesn't mean I mean, we do gain, we have a relationship with God. Um, we we have love that just is pouring over us and into us and filling us, but there is no promise of honestly, like all of your dreams being answered. You know what I'm saying? It's like it's like it's a different thing. And so if we present it the wrong way, it could be, oh, I want to belong, I want to be a part of a community, I want to do good things. I sat down with a woman years ago. We were at a table and uh I I'd never met her before, but we were at a conference together and she said, I heard that you work in the church. That's a really good thing, that's amazing. I sure, I'm sure your church does really good things. I said, you know, our church is amazing and we do really, really good work, but that's not why I'm in the church. And she just like stared at me. I said, No, I'm I'm in the church because of what Jesus has done in my life. I I I'm not, I'm not, I do good things in the church. I and I I wouldn't change that, but I'm there because of Jesus. And she said, I don't believe in Jesus, I'm an atheist. And I said, That's okay. That's okay. But I want you to know um and why I'm in the church. And then we had a whole conversation about it. So anyway, what do you guys think about repentance?
SPEAKER_02Um when I think of repentance, the I immediately think of um Luke chapter 9, verse uh 22, I think. And Jesus says, um,
Repentance Beyond Saying Sorry
SPEAKER_02if anyone wants to come after me, he must die himself, take up his cross daily and follow me. Um for whoever wants to save his life will lose it. And that that's what repentance is. I mean, those are red letters. That's Jesus talking. It's it can't be any more clear. Um repentance is not um saying that I'm sorry. Repentance isn't just uh turning around, because even though that's what it means, that makes it seem so much smaller than what it is. That's right. It's intention, it's actively um fighting forward to fight against your flesh and the world to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. Um so I I think that in our modern culture, people hear the word repentance and they kind of dumb it down in their mind. Um I think that it's very, very important for us to understand what it truly means. And unfortunately, I don't think a lot of people have a solid grasp on it.
SPEAKER_01Couldn't agree more, yeah. I So I remember I was in uh I was at a like a revival event in high school, and and they had multiple speakers, and all of them were talking about the gospel and and all the things that Jesus brings into our life. And and one of the speakers got up and said something that just stopped me in my track. He said, You know, the gospel is bad news before it's good news. And he talked about the need that we have to recognize that we are facing in the wrong direction. And until we recognize that, that the beginning of repentance is the recognition that we are broken and horrible and irredeemable and irretrievable in anything that we would do, anything we would believe. And it is Jesus who gives us the ability to go from where we're at to where he would take us. And so I think that's I I just had never forgot that. Uh, you know, sitting there is a High school student, and you know, it's all this good news and everybody's cheering and every and this guy gets up and goes, Hey, it's bad news. Yeah. Before it's good news. And I was like, I want to hear what he's gonna say next. Because we don't I mean, I that guy's like, Hey, I was really in a bad place and didn't really have much going on, and this guy's talking about world-changing stuff. So yeah. It just it sounded like ever a lot of the the um the really surface-level invitations and and uh you know, and he was in it for a long time. So you people go, well, it couldn't have been surface level because he was, you know, he got to the the to this really lofty position and and all of this, you know. So it must not have been surface level to no. Maybe that's why, you know, he couldn't sustain it.
SPEAKER_05That's a good point. Well, he said he felt like he was in chains.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, in chains and traps.
SPEAKER_05And I was like, the only way he could be in chains is if he has put that, he's trying to measure up to something that that isn't the gospel.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and somehow he figured out that the church is is not this great place. Like you you you you didn't figure that out earlier?
SPEAKER_05I'm in it, therefore. No.
SPEAKER_01You've heard me say that you know the church is Noah's Ark. If it wasn't for the storm on the outside, you wouldn't be able to stand the smell on the inside. Right. I mean, it's it's the best awful thing we've got.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I I don't know what he ran away from because it's like everything you say about it, I'm right there with you. It's probably true. They probably misspent their budget, they probably taught poorly on some things, and probably some people misunderperformed.
SPEAKER_05And you know, I I right. And I feel as I as I was watching the video, um when in this part, when he was talking about how he's at the end of, you know, he's the whatever he said, the darkness of the soul. But I never heard any time where he looked at himself as in need of salvation, of a savior. I need out, yeah, but there was never a look of facing the reality of who he was without Jesus. At least he didn't say it there.
SPEAKER_01It sounds to me like he's the only unbroken thing in the whole scenario. He's like, look at all this brokenness that I had to get away from. It's like get away from yourself. I mean, I'm the most broken thing in my ministry. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Don't know why you didn't see that.
SPEAKER_05But anyway.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah, I think that um with this whole movement, because ever since you sent me this, I've watched a whole bunch of these videos. Of course you have.
SPEAKER_05See, that's why I sent it to you.
SPEAKER_02I dove down the rabbit.
SPEAKER_01I think Craig will be more curious
Truth Versus Opinion In Deconstruction
SPEAKER_01than I was.
SPEAKER_05We are very like-minded when I look the midnight watching another one, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um so as I'm watching it, one thing that I noticed, uh there's a bunch of different um kind of categories, as you said at the beginning, and different experiences. But one thing I I've noticed with pretty much all of them is they all kind of bill this as they're in search for truth. You know, like nobody just said that they just stopped. Like they all want to make sure that everybody understands that they're actually hunting for the truth. And so I think that that kind of falls into like a one of our societal downfalls nowadays, and that's the fact that um we have in a way redefined the word opinion, but we didn't really redefine it, we just replaced it with truth. So many people think that my opinion is truth. Yeah, my truth, their truth, but they didn't change the definition to match opinion the way that they do sometimes. So now, to a lot of people, you have like all of these different truths, which just isn't true. There is truth, right? And then there's opinions, right? And there's not a middle ground. Yeah. And so when these people are looking through for their truth that they're talking about, uh as I'm watching these videos, I'm realizing they're all looking for their truth, or they're looking through a filter of their own opinion. Yeah. And it really, you know, kind of leads to a the ending of a lot of these stories that I'm seeing with them walking away from their faith in Christ. Because if you're judging everything off of the way that you want it to be, you're going to get to a different conclusion as if you're judging it based on reality. You know, that kind of um goes back to the repentance thing that we were talking about. We're not good. Left to our own devices, we're going to walk in the wrong direction. That's right. And we're going to run into walls and off of cliffs and every other bad thing that you can think of. So what we need to do to get off of that is follow truth, Jesus, the word of God. And we have to repent and turn away from ourselves. That's right. But if we have this misconception of what truth is, then it's going to lead us astray every single time. And that's just something that I saw was um huge and linked to every one of the videos that I saw.
SPEAKER_05It's like trying, yeah. It's this is what I think. This is it's kind of like this is what I believe. Now let me gather all the information that justifies. I mean, even though they say they're on the pursuit of truth. But honestly, today you can find you can align yourself with all different kinds of people and hear whatever you want to hear. Um I do find it interesting that he I would love to know what happened.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Because I think that's a key to this, because he leaves the church and he kinda he gets off social media. What's he doing?
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_05What where is he? What and he says he became kind of an agnostic and then he became an atheist, and now he's online. Um so it just makes me wonder what happened. Because there is a part in the video where they're talking about I think the guy, the host, who's a very interesting person as well, because he's an atheist who used to be a Christian. I if and I want to talk about if that's a good thing. Yeah. Now I forget what I was saying. That threw me off.
SPEAKER_01Wow. You're offended that people monetize faith, but you're you're monetizing atheism.
SPEAKER_02So kind of towards the end of this, definitely with the host and almost kind of um with uh Dr. Phillips, the guy that the video is about. I I don't know if atheists is even the proper label for them. It's more like they're anti-Christian. It's like so far beyond atheist. Like they're intentionally trying to rescue people from Christianity, as they say. And it's totally I wrote that down in my notes. So, like it's kind of hard for me to go from like it's an easier jump for me to going from I'm a believer to okay, I have doubts and questions that I need answers to, so I'm agnostic. But where do you go from I'm a believer to I need to save everybody from this lie that's being told to them? Because that's a that's even more of a jump.
SPEAKER_05Listen, when when the host, I'm gonna see if I have it written down here. When the host said that he was listening to Michael Card, um, and I I know Michael Card. I used to follow Michael Card and listen to his stuff. His music was great and it was more kind of folk, but it was all based in scripture. And he talked about how it's like, you know, no matter what you're going through, um, just go to God and talk to God and praise God in the middle of your difficulty, praise God and give God the glory. And, you know, and that is what the Bible says. The Bible says that, you know, you praise God in the middle of the storm, in the middle of the trouble, um, and he's with you in everything. And he was so offended by that. It's like that just means you can, you know, anything can happen, and you're still supposed to praise God. To me, that that's as I thought of repentance, I thought once again, here we are with with Job and God. You know, who is God? Who's the creator? Kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01The relationship becomes contractual. It's like a God, I'm gonna believe in you and follow you to a point, but if things get too bad, yeah, I'm not obligated anymore. It's like God's like, I this was never based on obligation. It was never based on performance. I look through my word. I'm gonna I tell you, there's gonna be really tough. But I think there's this uh and I told you earlier this, I jotted down this tidal wave of intellectual ferocity where people just the passion with which they come at things, and it's amazing what kind of truths you can conjure up just based on your Google searches.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, when I was a kid growing up, it you your pastor had to talk to you, your youth director had to hand you an article, you had to go to scripture. Now it's just it just comes at you in waves. And once you look at something, then that becomes your feed. So you'll get that supports this, supports and and I think it just it takes us in ways faster than we ever imagined into these this abyss of of doubt. Well, if I doubt this, then I doubt this. And yeah, I I I'm I'm glad I'm the age that I am, because I didn't have to I yeah, I I grieve some for for our students and children that they've got all of this coming at them.
SPEAKER_05It's hard. And that's why I think we as church leaders have to be even more intentional about how we teach the gospel. I I thought about like in the Bible, so the disciples, when Jesus said, follow me, well, they followed him for three years before they ever had any kind of leadership role. Paul, he was in the, you know, after he was on the walk and was blinded, he was being taught for three years before he ever went out and started talking about what happened to him. I mean, we can't just assume that people, if they have the language, that they actually have the understanding. Like we need to ensure that is actually happening with people because we are in a in a digital age where everybody's like and they're getting bad information.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05Um one of the things that the host said, and I wish I had it queued up, um, he talked about his best friend. I think it was the host who said that. And he said when he became an atheist, he called his best friend from like youth group or something, and Catherine, I think was her name. Um and he said he explained that he became an atheist and he was trying to talk her into become into becoming an atheist. And she said, There is absolutely nothing you can say to me that will convince me to leave Jesus, that there's no way I have tasted and I have seen. And I think I texted you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm like, Oh, I think actually what it was is she became an atheist, talked to him, and he felt bad.
SPEAKER_05No, no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_02And then, oh no, no, you're right. But then he ended up getting in touch with her later on. Was that true?
SPEAKER_05She he became the an atheist and he got in touch with her later on. And then she's like, No, you can't ever convince me. So so then my because I felt the same way. Like if somebody can, and they have, yeah, people have said that to me. I'm like, I have been changed. So I I thought about, you know, do we understand what it means? What is it? Can we actually become an atheist if we are a Christian? Is that even possible? I know what I think. Um, I'd love to hear what you guys uh what your thoughts are,
Can A Christian Become Atheist
SPEAKER_05Pastor Brian. He wrote a note over there.
SPEAKER_01Well, I just it it's true. I I never believed that Jesus had a conversation with somebody that he didn't have uh an outcome in mind, where he was what he was hoping would happen for this person. But if you look at his invitations, it's never you need to believe this, you need to, it's come and see, follow me, taste and see. Uh and I jotted down touch and believe. You know, it's like you know, I'm not telling you to just believe what everybody else says. Touch, touch my side, you know. So I think there's this insistence that God uh is trying to put an outcome on us that, you know, Jesus never, I mean, he he knew where he wanted to take us, but he doesn't tell us that we have no option of not going there. So I just I I that's my struggle with some of this that he feels like he was manipulated or you know that yeah. So anyway, that's me.
SPEAKER_05No, I mean Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I I think it's kind of a a complicated thing, right? Where can a believer become an atheist? So an atheist, by definition, believes that there is no higher power. Um I don't think that if you were ever a true believer or if you were born again, that you can become a true atheist. Because you would have to know. Um, I do fully believe that you could turn away from God, you could reject his offer of salvation. I mean, we even get told that even the demons believe. That's what I was getting ready to say.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it can we turn our back and become not saved and become um non-Christian? Absolutely. Can we become an atheist by like actual definition? I don't think that's possible. Um, I don't think there's any way that you could be a born-again Christian and somehow no longer believe that God exists. Because if you're a born-again Christian, then you have the Holy Spirit. And so, for even if you make the decision to walk away from God a week later, there's an impact that that having the Holy Spirit come into your heart. There's an impact that is so profound that it will leave you changed, even if you don't have one of those like aha moments. And you know, there might be some people watching this thinking, oh man, well, I never had like this like feeling in my chest or anything like that. It doesn't have to be something like that. Like, that's not what I'm talking about. But you know, and there's no longer a doubt in your mind that God exists. You might have all kinds of other doubts. I still have doubts. It's okay to have doubts. But does God exist is no longer on the table once you become born again.
SPEAKER_05And and I kept going back to Christians all over the world for ever since you know Jesus have been dying for their faith. So, like why would people be dying for their faith if they don't believe, number one, that Jesus is who he said he was and that he's the son of God? I I just it just seems like a lot to say you believe and and then say that you're an atheist. I I think I definitely wrestle with um are they really do have they really had um a a r a moment of repentance and in their life? I I think I my brain, it's hard for me to get around it. Can they walk away? Can they be hardened? Can they yes, all the things. Um but like you said, can they say God doesn't exist? Oh, I think the only way that could happen is two ways, is if number one, they never knew um God to begin with, or number two, they're just so angry and they've hardened their heart so hard that they're just saying it. Yeah. There was a glimpse of something I saw in this guy, Dr. Phillips, at the end, and I don't remember what was being said, and I remember seeing something in his eye. And I think he was talking about, yeah, it seemed so real at the time, and and all these things that happened, and I and there was something in his eye that seemed hurt, and I don't know, or like I wanted it, or or I want to go back to that a nanosecond, and he would probably never ever admit it. Right. Um, but it it was there and it was sad. It was like I said, it was it was sad. The other guy who's Tim, whatever his Tim Mills, seems to be a lot more There's some definite hurt happening with him somewhere.
SPEAKER_02I I would have to say there's something happened. I don't I have no way, obviously, of knowing what it is.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, and my intuition is uh if you were talking to either one of them, they'd be offended that you go, yeah, I don't think you ever, you know. Um because uh I a hundred percent believe that they think that they've had what they thought was a genuine experience with with God, and and uh but uh I it makes me wonder if I'd have been one of their friends, what would my posture have been? How would I have handled hearing them tell me I I don't believe any of it anymore? I don't, you know, because I think there's this this part of us that struggles so much to watch other people struggle. And it's so important that uh people of faith come alongside people that are in the midst of doubt and be really good companions, to be really, you know, really good traveling partners with somebody who's struggling, as opposed to I I I don't want to even hear that. It's like so you know, I think that's a good point.
SPEAKER_05Um I think we've got to be willing to have conversations and listen for sure. Um I mean, the more we just push people away, the less they're gonna be open to hearing and and even then just being a friend to people and loving them. Um hearing doesn't mean that we agree. I mean, we're just having a conversation. I um one of the things I I do want to talk about, I don't want to take too much time, but he talked about going to Princeton for a fellowship.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And he did that back in the early 2000s. And
Seminary Intellectualism And Doubt Waves
SPEAKER_05I found it super interesting because he kind of looped back and said he thinks that's when he started having these seeds planted in him to ask questions. And he called it habit of mind that they taught him, you know, how to think, how to ask questions. And and he was with people that didn't believe like him and that were very liberal, and he seemed to think they were amazingly brilliant.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05You know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05So I just want to talk about that for a minute.
SPEAKER_01So I had um when I went to to seminary, when I went to to uh get my master's, um I was a phys ed major. I had had I had taken no religion or Bible classes in my undergraduate. I come in at mid-year. Um I didn't know Martin Luther from Martin Luther King. I mean, it was like, you know. And and everybody else was kind of in the same, and there was a guy who had uh owned a uh company installing swimming pools. And there was another guy who was a realtor, and and uh there was a a woman who was uh retired and just felt God was calling her. And we went uh to, you know, we're all there in seminary together, and they literally told us, uh, we're gonna we're gonna dismantle your faith. We're gonna dismantle the faith that your parents have handed you and give you the ability to put back together your own faith. And I the rest of the time I was there, I was I just like I I don't need my own faith. I need the faith that God would give to me. So it was interesting because I ended up with a lot of people that started out with me on this journey to be pastors that ended up doing something very different. I mean, I I think there was uh 48 in our class, uh 30 graduated, so we lost like half, uh a third to a half, and you know, and now uh there's four of us left that are still active in ministry. Well, actually there's two of us left because two just retired. But this whole idea that constantly I'm supposed to be deconstructing my faith and putting it back together. And it and it really is like seminary destroyed about half these people's faith. Uh with the the intellectual, you know. Well, the Bible it doesn't he he he really wasn't she really wasn't a virgin. He really and and it puts all well if that's not true, then this is not true. Anyway, I'm going way down this rabbit trail, but it was just that era of and I don't, you know, the 70s through, you know, where we're at now, it just seems that there's just this wave of you can't just believe it. You can't it's like okay.
SPEAKER_05The definition of faith on its own requires you to let go a little bit to believe, you know.
SPEAKER_01It is But I think a lot of people will be scared to to to have a conversation with him where he's at now. Because he is, he sounds brilliant. Yeah. He's he he's he's way smarter than I am. Right. Guarantee you, although he wasn't smart enough to not go get a doctorate. But anyway.
SPEAKER_05What did you think about his conversation about that?
SPEAKER_02With uh the Princeton thing? Yeah, I mean, I kind of had a very similar thought to you when he was he spent a long time like prefacing his time with these people and how brilliant they were and all of that. And even as far as he get that my original thought as he's sitting there talking about this and like almost exalting these people for their ability to um go outside of what the norm was and say that those things weren't true. My thought is even as far as he's gotten at this point, like that should have been assigned to him, the fact that he could sit in a room full of those people and that they could say these things that obviously go against scripture and the walk that he's been on, and that he could admire them for it. That right there should have been an indication that something was wrong. You're moving in the wrong direction. Because I couldn't, I mean, I am still in seminary and I'm not gonna be done for a couple years. That's like capital S, like nowhere near doctorate's degree, you know. But even where I'm at now, I don't care if I was sitting in a room full of like some of the most well-known theologians there were in the world. If they started talking like that, I would immediately be like, whoa, whoa, what are you guys talking about?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like I feel like, like, let's get the Bible out because I don't feel like you guys have been in the Word for a while or something. You seem to be going in the wrong direction.
SPEAKER_05Well, guess what? When I I went to school when I was an adult, much older than a lot of the students. And and I went to Candler. Sorry, but it was it was a challenge because I was doing it going, you believe what? You know, and I mean I felt very much um uh sometimes, not always, but sometimes just kind of on my own over here in a corner. Uh and I know other people who have felt that in different circumstances as well. And but you know what? I'm older now.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And so I have more confidence in my walk with the Lord now. And so, and I've had a lot of trials and tribulations and have had to depend upon God. Everything they were talking about, you know, singing when you and worshiping God in the trouble, you know. I've experienced that. And I think you guys have probably done that too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And it changes who you are. Um, was there anything else that you guys, I mean, I I want to talk about like how we interact in this world and how we talk to people. Um, but was there anything else about the video that you wanted to?
SPEAKER_01The interesting thing to me, I'm sitting there thinking of my, you know, my New Testament professor uh was an atheist. And had the entire New Testament memorized. I mean, he could literally quote it to you.
SPEAKER_05It was just literature for him. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01He had it all in up here and none of it in any other sphere of his life. It it had no weight to him other than an intellectual pursuit. And I feel like once you go down the road of the and I don't want to call it intellectualism, because there's nothing wrong with with intellectually pursuing the truth of the gospel, uh, the the word, but the whole idea that I will suspend my faith anytime something can't be intellectually proven to me.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh means that that what you've got's not faith.
SPEAKER_05Exactly. Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.
SPEAKER_02And so many people will uh it's I feel like it's a double standard with exactly what you're saying, because they'll apply that to their faith, but they won't apply that to other things in life. There's so many things that we do throughout our every day, and something doesn't seem like quite off, or we might get a bit of information that goes against something that we do, but we kind of just knock it out of the way and keep going. Like you might have somebody incredibly intelligent sit there and uh give you all kinds of reasons as to why marriage goes against human nature and like all of the bad psychological things that could happen through marriage or whatever, but you're not gonna leave your wife. You're still gonna stay married to her or husband, whatever the case may be. And um I just feel like we do that with so many things in life. We're able to take bits of information, process it, but not let it affect the whole of what that information goes towards. But with people with their faith, they're very much not like that. They could have this huge faith with all of this information that they've studied and put so much time into, and somebody throws this little pebble at it, and now all of a sudden it shatters everything. And I don't that doesn't calculate to me somehow. And I feel like that is, you know, when we should do the only positive side uh type of um deconstruction where it's like, okay, you know what? That's interesting. Let me go get answers to that. But I'm not gonna change all of my beliefs because I need an answer to a question. Right.
SPEAKER_01And I've heard things, you know, through the years, you know, I think we're called to be lifelong learners. And I've heard things through the years that have caused me to adjust my theology, to adjust the way that I see truth in a in a story, whether it's from scripture or whether it's from somebody's life. But it doesn't mean that I I've I surrender a settled trust in God. Right. And that's that's the troubling thing to me when people are willing to say it's all up for grabs now because you disproved this one or you you made me think differently about this. Uh so it all just goes away.
SPEAKER_05Aaron Ross Powell I just think it all goes back to the garden, you know, and that people want to be their own gods. Yeah, you know, and and they want to live their lives the way they want to live it, and they feel like God is um too much of the chains, the a burden, not knowing there's great freedom in that. It's um and and and the other thing is there's there is uh he said, what did he say? Um anything would have uh worked for him. He goes, it could have been Islam, Buddhism. I was looking for something. It could have been anything. I needed a guidepost. And I mean to me that's a clue into he was just looking for a direction. He wasn't looking for communion with God.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_05And I think He was just looking for a place to go. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I heard a guy, um, a a fairly well-known agnostic giving and he he uh said uh they asked him why he was agnostic and not atheist, and he said, I don't he said, I'm too afraid of God to act like he might not be real. So I'm more comfortable believing he's not real than I am, you know, might might might be there. So I just gonna reject him out of hand. That's less scary. I'm like okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you you'd almost have to dive into that thought. If something doesn't exist, why would you be scared of it? You know?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. What would what would you say um to the person who resonates with these guys and says, you know, no, I'm or or maybe like teetering on, I think I'm an atheist. I I used to go to church
Practical Steps For A Faith Crisis
SPEAKER_05all the time, but now I find myself questioning, like, what direction would you give someone at this point?
SPEAKER_02So I I think that my advice would be you need to be honest with yourself intellectually and emotionally. And you really need to stop and think why you're having pause when you're hearing things like this. And you need to get to the core of the issue and and be completely honest with yourself. Talk to somebody about what that is. Maybe you don't even have to tell them the reason why. For example, if somebody tells you um something about the uh the scripture being not reliable, and you've been honest with yourself and you realize that, like, oh, well, this conversation that I had six months ago about the scripture not being reliable is really kind of what's rooted in this. You don't then have to go to your pastor or somebody like that and say, I am questioning my faith because I don't know about the scripture because this person said that. Um, instead, you can go to your pastor or to any kind of um textual criticism expert or anything, and just do the research to is the scripture reliable? And I mean that's just one example, but whatever it is.
SPEAKER_05If you without being one-sided that go to where it is, exactly.
SPEAKER_02And do honest intellectual research. If you have church hurt, it and I get that a lot of this comes from church hurt. There's a lot of churches and a lot of individuals within churches that are be stumbling blocks for a lot of people and they're doing terrible things. I mean, it's like Pastor Brian said, kind of at the beginning. Um it's like a terrible, great place, you know. So it's those things are gonna be out there. Yes, you're gonna find hypocrites. Yes, you're gonna have people that are uh mistreating people in very bad ways. But if you're having that, um I would say again, be honest with yourself and go outside of where the source of it is and talk to somebody else. Um, you you know, you can't judge Jesus off of the three of us. Like, yes, we we're in a church and we're Christians, and but you know, if I say something hypocritical um or if I start um preaching uh heresy, that doesn't say anything about Jesus in the scripture. That says something about me. Um it's so I I would just challenge them to be honest and don't immediately jump to a conclusion because you're scared or because it's easy. It's too important of a decision to just turn tail and run, you know. I I think that you would need to be honest with yourself, get to the bottom of it, find somebody that you can trust and have a discussion with them, whether you're outright honest that it's a crisis of faith and you're gonna walk away, or if it's just talking to them about the information that's leading to that without telling them about the crisis, that's the way that I would handle it.
SPEAKER_05I think it's a good idea to go back to where when did it begin and how did it begin?
SPEAKER_02Right, absolutely.
SPEAKER_05You know, I think that's great. What do you you have any suggestions, Pastor Brian?
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell Well, I you know, I thought it's hard for me to separate um just the importance that that everything theological that I see Jesus bringing to bear when he's interacting with people, whether it's preaching or it's all in the context of relationship. And I it just it makes me wonder with with these guys or or anybody that that I see that it's interesting because people usually don't walk out of the church screaming.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01It's usually the person that just kind of vanishes, kind of just eases and and it's typically relational. It's not my my belief system has been shattered. It's something relationally has broken with me, with God, or with me and people, and and it leaves me in this disturbed place that I can't be there anymore. I can't be there uh physically, I can't be there uh theologically, I can't be there, you know, spiritually. And so to me, um when you're building a faith or you're you're trying to figure out how to hang on to a faith, it's gotta be in the context of relationship. You you can't do this kind of search and study and and not have some people around you walking with you and and uh you know if you walk away while other people are encouraging you, that's a different journey than I just threw up my hands and walked away and didn't tell anybody about it. So, you know, that would be my encouragement to s to somebody that telling me I I'm really wrestling, I don't know. It's like, okay, who have you built into your life that you can now lean on? Because I've had plenty of periods in my life where I've I've I've not lost faith, but I've lost kind of that spark of of why are we doing this? Right. You know, I never question what I do. I I never go, I'm just not sure this pastor thing is anything anybody ought to do. But I question all the time, are we doing it in a way that is the gospel? And so I just to me it's it's relationship, relationship, relationship. And um people that walk away tend to not have a lot of those, you know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I think, you know, we're in the series right now, changing our minds and having them gaining the mind of Christ. And I would only add that I feel like we need to be um open and and not trying to force fit what or do, you know, like a tendency or a thought that we've had or a seed, like truly be open with the Holy Spirit and ask. Uh, the Bible says that if we seek him, that we will find him. And so just be available seeking and try. I always say put our mind in a place that's like we're in the car and we're in neutral, but we can be nudged by the Holy Spirit rather than driving and expecting, you know, got the Holy Spirit to, if that makes any sense, you know, just being allow ourselves and our minds as we surround ourselves uh with others. Uh like in your class is really a good one as an example. People are asking questions all the time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um and and be able to, I think, I think we haven't done a lot of the work, which is the uh there's a lot of voices. I'm going all over the map here. There's a lot of voices out there. And so we can easily go online and go, I want to go and just whatever pops up and just keep going down that path. Oh, I'm gonna ask AI now and I'm gonna do this. And um, I think if we ask the creator of the universe to help us uh and give us insight and surround us with the right people, if we really want to know the truth, we'll we'll get to the truth. Yeah, you know, and the truth will set us free. So uh before we end today, is there anything else you guys want to add? Thoughts, concerns?
SPEAKER_01I I I keep thinking about whether so I've um and this may be really bad theology, but I'm just gonna throw it out there that um I believe that I have
Final Takeaways And How To Reach Us
SPEAKER_01this life of faith that I have is is a zero-risk proposition. If if I died tomorrow and found out with my last breath of regret that Jesus wasn't who he said he was, and I could come back, this is the life I would want. It's a better life to live, it's a better life to aspire to. I wake up every morning thinking that that somebody through something I say, some little thing that I do, could have a life-changing experience with with the one true God. Uh that's the life I want to live every time. So anyway.
SPEAKER_05I don't think that's bad theology.
SPEAKER_02I don't think that's bad theology either. Um and for me, you know, I you guys know me very well. I I like to be um I'm very logical and intellectual, intellectual, and so like that that's my thing to everybody is I just challenge them because it's so easy for us to lie to ourselves. Um but also we're lying to ourselves. So deep down we know. So just be honest with yourself. What is the reason that you're doing it? Um, because you're not gonna find yourself stuck if you're able to be honest with yourself. You're not gonna be creating any kind of false world or theology or anything around that. Um if you can be honest with yourself, then you can move forward. And honestly, you're gonna tear down any of the walls that uh you're building up between you and Jesus as well. Um, because it just naturally will allow the Holy Spirit to work better through you.
SPEAKER_01Amen. Amen.
SPEAKER_05Well, I want to thank all of you who have been listening um or watching. And if you have any kind of questions or concerns, you can certainly s leave a comment or reach out and we'll try to help you. So thank you so much for tuning in, and I'll see you next time.